Audio file 33-1

Wonga asks how Ernest about his first contact with African art. Ernest explains he was born in a shantytown in Turffontein, that he grew up in mining town shanties around Johannesburg with only a small elementary school necessitating attendance at a boarding school and that it was at the boarding school where he first had contact with art

Whilst unidentified, the school is likely to be Grace Dieu Diocesan College

note that in Elza Miles' biography, "Lifeline out of Africa: the art of Ernest Mancoba" 1994, she gave his birthplace as Boksburg (a mining town) but in her subsequent book "Land and Lives: a story of early black artists" 1997, she corrects it to Turffontein

Ernest recalls the school taught handiwork, that a missionary taught woodcarving of ecclesiastical objects, which was his first contact with sculptures

the unidentified missionary is likely to be Sister Pauline

Ernest says that his mother also told him of the Zulu tradition of carving totems and reproductions of ancestors in wood; that she made earthenware pots with women of her societal group which were decorated with figures per tradition

Whilst Ernest's family identify as amaFengu, their roots are amongst the amaZulu. Zulu women made ceramic pots not only for daily use but also for social ritual purposes

Moreover, she spoke of the ceramic and carving traditions of social cohesion, with poetic significance in the earthenware and the figure; Wonga observed that even as he made Christian religious objects, Ernest was taking the carving seriously

[tape stopped and restarted] Wonga wants to know when Ernest started finding his artistic expression? Ernest explains at the Anglican mission school where he had instructions in different subjects including handiwork and drawing, that he was about ten to twelve years old; Wonga asks if he made religious figures, Ernest confirms including a Madonna

Ernest made 3 known Madonnas: the "Black Madonna" aka "African Madonna" (1929), "Mater Christi" (1935) and "Mater Christi" (1935).

Ernest speaks of making "New Africa" (c1934) that he sold but he cannot recall to whom; Ernest recalls making and selling one or two works to Rheinallt Jones from the University in Johannesburg

He is likely referring to "Future Africa" (1933-34) and the buyer was from the University of Witwatersrand (Johannesburg)

they speak of someone who contacted Ernest recently who owned the "Madonna" and a bas relief for the Church; Ernest struggles to remember the church and the school's names

The bas relief may be "the Vine and the Branches" (1935)

Ernest is reminded of another smaller school in the same environs, Khaiso Secondary school, where he taught; Ernest says he studied at the University of Fort Hare after teaching at Khaiso; Wonga asks what exposure he had to art there? Ernest said he did not see art but was exposed to art theories and reproductions

Ernest misremembered: he studied at the University of Fort Hare (1933-36) before teaching at Khaiso Secondary school (1937). The University offered a general liberal arts education.

Wonga asks about Ernest's mother showing him reproductions, and Ernest is reminded of small Zulu objects; Ernest further recalls seeing medicinal and traditional objects in Pietersburg whilst he was teaching at Khaiso, that when he showed his artworks to an African "medicine man", the man gave him the chieftain stick and another sculpture; Ernest describes the people in the area as Venda

the region at this time was a borderland and there were many peoples living there, including the amaNdebele and amaTsonga as well as the amaVenda - the preface "ama" has been adapted since Mancoba's time to refer to "people".

Ernest speaks of the gift of the carvings in audio files 102-1 and 103-2

speaking of the Venda reminds Ernest of miners who came from Mozambique, including the one from the Shangan tribe who bestowed him the name Ngungunyama. The original Ngungunyama was a tribal chief and there was a poem likening him to a bird bending a tree

Ngungunyama is Ernest's clan name. A clan name is separate from a legal name and connects the person to his/her lineage and heritage

[tape stopped and restarted] Wonga recaps the chronology Ernest's education in African art; Wonga asks how Ernest met the Venda people in Pietersburg; Ernest explains his colleagues had family in the villages [they speak in French]

Wonga asks Ernest about his exchanges with the "medicine men"? Ernest recounts the men speaking of plants and carved totems which had healing powers in homes, that African spirituality is a combination of the physical and spiritual; that their job was to safeguard physical and spiritual survival; Ernest explains that the chieftain stick he was gifted was such a spiritual tool [they speak in French]

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest expresses his concern of African spirituality being forgotten; Wonga thinks an African artist's responsibility is to transform the form to keep it relevant [they speak in French]

[tape ends]