Audio file 91-1

They speak of Drancy, Ernest thinks he was there for two months

letter to the commandant of Drancy in the archive show that Ernest was there on 30 May 1941

Wonga asks about St Denis and the debates Ernest organised there; Ernest compares the prison debates to those he organised at the University of Fort Hare and Wonga posits that many prisoners must have treated them as diversions [he references Arthur Briggs' jazz concerts as another]

Wonga questions whether having debates was not considered problematic by the Germans which might be why they sent Ernest to Drancy; after some discussion, Ernest agrees Wonga's hypothesis is plausible

Wonga continues to ruminate over his hypothesis and the hypocrisy of having debating societies between black and white students in South Africa; Ernest corrects that debates between students of different races only occurred at the University of Fort Hare with Rhodes University and not elsewhere in the country; Wonga and Ernest argue whether debating societies in universities are hypocritical [mentions Hilary Clinton]

Ernest returns to the German commandant at Drancy who considered Ernest's complaint against the abusing soldier, and opines that it may have been the commandant who arranged for Ernest to be sent back to St Denis; this catches Wonga by surprise

Ernest also speaks of this incident in audio files 18-1 and 64-1. He addressed the letter to Mr Fletcher (idigitised in the dbase)

On finding out that the debates were not stopped after Ernest was sent to Drancy, Wonga considers the theory that it might just have been contradictions in German bureaucracy; Ernest agrees offering the inconsistency of one soldier abusing him (at Drancy) whilst another took photos of Sonja and he on their wedding day (at St Denis)

Wonga thinks the Nazis were inconsistent in their policies; Ernest thinks the Nazis are just human, with some of greater humanity than others; Wonga interrupts to distinguish between individuals' values and German authorities' policies

Ernest wants to change the subject, they argue [tape stopped and restarts] Ernest remembers the German soldier who took the wedding photo and the Jewish man who helped him translate his letter to the Drancy commandant and the commandant's reply back to and from German and English

the photos are in the family archive and printed on p. 38 of "Lifeline out of Africa: the art of Ernest Mancoba" by Elza Miles, 1994, Human & Rousseau

Wonga returns to why Ernest was transferred; Ernest says he doesn't know why the German soldier took the risk of taking the photo; Wonga settles on discrepancies in German policy

Ernest explains that his order to go to Drancy was sudden, and he could not notify Sonja; Wonga tries to guess Sonja's state of emotion; Ernest explains visitors were not allowed at Drancy but he could receive parcels and that Sonja was not allowed to give him a letter but could send him his clothes

Ernest is distracted and speaks of Milosz being sent to Drancy after him

in audio file 151-1, Ernest says Milosz was sent to Royallieu-Compiègne camp

Wonga redirects Ernest to speaking of Sonja finding out about Ernest being at Drancy but Ernest is confused in his reply and is unsure if Sonja was able to pass him a parcel at Drancy

[tape ends, continues 91-2]