Audio file 60-1

Wonga recaps Ernest's earlier years: mostly in Germiston, then whilst Ernest was studying at Grace Dieu his family moved to Benoni

Germiston, Benoni are all informal settlements that became towns around Comet gold mine. They are now all part of greater Johannesburg.

Ernest recalls helping to start the Pathfinders at Grace Dieu, started by a young teacher who was associated with the Boy Scouts in England

Ernest speaks about Pathfinders in 85-2

Ernest compares the idea of the brotherhood of the Boy Scouts to the African brotherhood with boys of the same generation undergoing an initiation ritual together, including circumcision; he compares the social message of Boy Scouts as that of Umuntu

"Umuntu" which is spelt "Ubuntu" today, is a shorthand phrase for the saying "I am a person through other people. My humanity is tied to yours" (as translated by Bishop Desmond Tutu (1931-2021)

Ernest speaks of African women having initiation rituals too, and the ritual of pot making

only amaZulu women could make pots: the pots were for practical everyday use and for sacred ritual use. Whilst Florence Mancoba was of the amaFengu, they were part of the amaZulu until they broke from Shaka Zulu

Returning to the Boy Scouts, Ernest says he would come to be disappointed by their rejection of Black members; that instead of the Boy Scouts, Black boys joined their version, the Pathfinders

Ernest sees a parallel in his Pathfinder experience as his parents with their Black churches separate from the White churches

Ernest continues about education for Black people

Wonga asks for a comparison between African initiation and Boy Scouts? Ernest opines on the Boy Scouts as an incomplete way to prepare boys for adulthood given their exclusion of black members despite their stated aims of brotherhood

Ernest and Wonga argue about the history of the Boy Scouts (mentions Baden Powell and Russian Red Pioneers); Wonga argues that all societies need and create initiation rites and criticises the possibility of creating Nazi youths

Ernest recalls his mother trying to get white mothers to help black mothers with teaching the girls but that she was rebuffed

Wonga asks if Ernest tried to recruit Pathfinders in the townships, and Ernest confirmed so during his Grace Dieu years when he was a teacher; Ernest tries to remember where, when and how he became a teacher; Ernest speaks of schools for blacks, including Lovedale

According to Ernest's biographer, Ernest trained to be a teacher at Grace Dieu from 1920 to 1923. That he taught there from 1924 to 1929.

Wonga asks about tertiary education for blacks before Ernest's time, like Jabavu, and Ernest said there was no institution for blacks, that Jabavu and others had to go to England ; Ernest says that Fort Hare was not a university during his time

Some universities did accept Black students during Jabavu's time but each university set its own policy and Black students were in the minory

Ernest is incorrect about the University of Fort Hare's status. It was accredited in 1923 for both matriculation and bachelors level. Ernest completed his matriculation at the University of Fort Hare

[tape ends, continues 60-2]