Audio file 49-2

[continues from 49-1] Wonga tries to focus Ernest's recollections on the boat to England and his arrival; [tape stopped and restarts a few times] Ernest is met by a man organised by Bishop Smythe who took him to London and set up his accommodation; whilst waiting to meet the Bishop, Ernest went to a pub and recognised a sailor from the ship - Ernest stops himself as he cannot remember if the meeting was in London or Southampton

Bishop Smythe was a minister of the Anglican Church. The Church operated the Grace Dieu Diocesan College where Ernest studied and Khaiso Secondary School where Ernest taught

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest recalls the meeting was in Southampton and the sailor told him about his life as a sailor and that one of the ships for which he crewed was called "Alone" - the name struck Ernest as he felt alone, but the image of ship balanced by waves gave him courage; Ernest cannot recall how he met the man on the ship

Elsewhere, Ernest recalls the boat's name as "All Alone" and "Loneliness"

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest recalls that Bishop Smythe had friends in Paris who could help Ernest find an art school; the Bishop also told Ernest that a former Grace Dieu student was also in England studying medicine

The fellow Grace Dieu student Ernest cannot recall is likely to be Dr Ngomo and Ernest visited him at his hospital - refer diary 1938-1940

Wonga is frustrated that Ernest is repeating himself [in French and in English], they argue [Wonga mentions Elza Miles]; [tape stopped and restarts] Wonga reminds Ernest that he wanted to meet English workers but Ernest does not expand

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest speaks of his arrival in Southampton: a man sent by Bishop Smythe was waiting for him, helps him with baggage and asks Ernest to wait for him at a pub; at the pub, a sailor from the Balmoral Castle recognises Ernest and they converse; the sailor tells him his prior ship was called "All Alone" and Ernest finds relevance for his own situation in that name

Ernest continues that he was taken to London to Bishop Smythe's residence which Ernest recalls was in the West End; the Bishop reminisced about his time at the University of Fort Hare and spoke of his retirement, that he was still living together with his sister; Ernest acknowledges the Bishop's help moving to Paris

Whilst Ernest awaiting arrangements to move to Paris Ernest visited the British Museum and saw arts from Central Africa and Ernest recalled information learnt from his readings; [tape stopped and restarts] Wonga interrupts to ask about South African museums, and Ernest explains he did not have access to museums in South Africa and nor did South African museums collect African art

Whilst in Cape Town, Ernest read Paul Guillaume's and Thomas Munro's "Primitive Negro Sculptures" (1929), a book on West and Central African art

Whether the South African museums had collection of African art or no, the more important point is that Ernest did not feel he could visit the museums

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest states the European museums had difficulties understanding the spiritual context of African art to the same degree of appreciation of Western art; he continues that at his Parisian art school the pedagogy followed the human proportions of classical art whereas African art pursued human proportion to present spiritual content

Wonga brings the subject back to Ernest's first time seeing African art formally [speaks in French]; [tape stopped and restarts] Ernest says he did not see African art whilst in South Africa and Wonga asks questions which Ernest cannot answer [mentions Johannesburg Art Gallery, National Gallery in London]

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga asks Ernest if he learned about art through books [in French] and Ernest confirms; Wonga asks whether Ernest saw a Madonna before he carved "Black Madonna" (1929) and Ernest recalls that he saw one in a church

Ernest carved the "Black Madonna" whilst at Grace Dieu Diocesan College, by then he was a teacher there. The College had a woodworking workshop which carved mainly ecclesiastical objects. Whilst the "Black Madonna" was Ernest's first fine art work, he was commissioned to carve Saint Augustine of Canterbury (1932) for St Augustine's Church, Kent, England

Wonga asks if the artists Ernest met in South Africa recommend he visit the museums [in English and French; mentions Lippy Lipshitz]; [tape stopped and restarts] Ernest says he did not try to go to museums in Johannesburg due to pass laws which were not as restrictive in Cape Town; Ernest confirms that whilst there were no laws preventing him from going to museums in Cape Town it was not the accepted custom; in any event both acknowledge that the Cape Town museum did not show African art

Wonga concludes that this is why Ernest saw African art formally only when he arrives in London; Wonga asks Ernest for his reaction on his visits to the British Museum [tape stopped and restarts several times]; Ernest begins, but does not finish, saying he understood why Europeans pushed Africans aside

[recording ends]

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