Audio file 103-1

Wonga lists Ernest's points of direct contact with African art: his parents speaking of the culture in Tsomo where they came from, seeing Zulu dances by miners whilst growing up in the mining town, observing village life near Alice

Ernest's formal access to African art was limited in South Africa as by the time of this birth the country had been colonised for 200+ years and much of the former agrarian and rural way of life had been replaced by urban living especially around the mining towns - as was the case for Ernest's family

Ernest adds "the painted people" whom he called Amaqaba; Ernest admires the people's retention of their culture as a protest against the colonisers

It is a custom of the amaXhosa to apply white paste in patterns to the face and body. "Amaqaba" means one who observes the culture of the amaXhosa

Wonga asks if Ernest's renewed interest in African culture was due to reading the book recommended by Lippy Lipshitz; Wonga mentions Ernest's discussion with Gerard Sekoto, visits to Northern Transvaal Ndebele villages around Pietersburg

The book is likely to be Paul Guillaume's and Thomas Munro's "Primitive Negro Sculptures" (1929) which Ernest read at the library on the recommendation of Lipshitz. The book is on Western and Central African sculptures and includes 40 plates.

In 1937, Ernest and Gerard Sekoto were teachers at Khaiso Secondary School near Pietersberg which was settled by Ndebele and Venda and Tsonga and other African peoples.

Ernest explains he was taught to be observant and his family were suspicious of the Occidental people and that he was naturally interested in African people and his stay in Pietersburg offered him an opportunity to be at the frontier of Africans and colonisers (mentions Bishop and Mrs Fuller)

[tape stopped and restarted] Wonga wants to know about the Ndebele people, he fills in what he knows, about Sekoto having contact with villagers through their children

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest is in the midst of speaking about the sculptor who gifted him the chieftain stick; Wonga turns to the village cultural customs and they discuss the meaning of the dances (mention Fengu and Xhosa peoples)

Wonga speaks of the correspondence of the Ndebele village's geographic plan to social order

The arrangement of the amaNdebele homestead typically follow a plan and the houses are painted in geometric patterns. During Ernest's time, the palette is likely to be in earth tones because of the earthen pigment used. Later, the amaNdebele would use commercial house paint (source: "Ndebele: The Art of an African Tribe", M. Courtney-Clarke, 1987, C. Struik publishers)

Wonga asks about ceremonial wood-carved objects

woodcarving is not a major custom of the Ndebele people but it is of the Venda and Tsonga peoples whom they do not speak about but who also lived in the area

Ernest speaks of his meeting with the wood sculptor and the gifting of the carved stick

Wonga wonders how Ernest and the traditional sculptor exchanged their two artistic approaches (compares it to Picasso saying he did not know African art)

Ernest explains that African art includes art made by children for amusement and art made by adults with serious intent; Ernest segues into the commissioner of the Empire exhibition wanting him to make the former which was why he turned the commission down

The Empire exhibition refers to the Empire Exhibition of 1936 in Johannesburg

Wonga returns to his question on how they were able to speak about serious art but Ernest does not understand; Wonga asks how the sculptor would see the "African Madonna" (1929); Wonga discusses different traditions and Ernest speaks about the uniqueness of his Madonna sculpture and "Future Africa" (1933-34) (Wonga mentions Caravaggio)

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