Audio file 63-1

Ernest recalls a math problem at Grace Dieu in which the White Bishop gets the answer wrong but the Black teacher [Glepou] explains; Wonga thinks the problem is objectively solvable but Ernest says that as children they were impressed because they thought White people knew everything

Ernest speak of errors being made by Black and White peoples; Wonga gives his thoughts on the incidence; Ernest recalls the Bishop accepting his error [tape stopped and restarted multiple times]

Ernest speaks of his mathematical education

Ernest speaks about his education in English literature, that he was inspired by Charles Dickens' "Oliver Twist"; Ernest recalls the teacher, James Palmer, telling of a large albatross following the boat that took him from England to Australia, and it impressed Ernest who had never seen the sea before

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga asks if Ernest felt affinity with Oliver Twist, growing up in the mining slum; Ernest agrees and said that James Palmer explained English social classes which was also a revelation

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga speaks of the difference between the English and the Black miners in social class in South Africa; Ernest speaks of colonisers dividing the colonised [mentions Mobutu and Kabila]

they argue about European Unity and Wonga makes the case for unity and Ernest states the case that European view of the "Third World" is different than the Third World's view

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest speaks of the CoBrA retrospective in Paris in 1983 and that at the opening Erik Ortvad is respectful to Sonja but disrespects Ernest; Ernest recalls Karel Appel choosing to sit next to him

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga returns them to teachers at Grace Dieu, and Ernest speaks of Sister Pauline who taught art and perspective - explaining that drawing was taught as a pedagogical tool to the students who were studying to be teachers - and that she also taught him music

Grace Dieu also had a woodworking workshop mainly to make ecclesiastical objects and it is there that Ernest first learned how to carve wood

Wonga asks about Sister Pauline's background; Ernest explains that she came directly from England and so did not inherit White South African prejudice, that the nuns would retire back to England

Ernest tries to recall a Sister who tried to help Ernest and the other fellows obtain their Junior Teaching Certificate

[tape ends, continues 63-2]