Audio file 132-1

Wonga reflects on the social situation that gave rise to the CoBrA manifesto (mentions Joseph Stalin, Richard Mortensen)

In the Cobra manifesto, member Constant writes "After a period when art represented nothing, a new era starts - when art represents everything"

Wonga speaks of CoBrA closing artistic doors which Sonja Ferlov Mancoba was against (mentions Richard Mortensen, Asger Jorn)

Wonga criticises the Cobra group's stated attitude versus their actual behaviour.

[tape stopped and restarted] Wonga interprets Christian Dotremont's speech at the opening of the CoBrA exhibition at the Stedelijk Museum; Wonga on the Dutch CoBrA artists abandoning movement due to backlash and those who stayed (mentions Rooskens, Brands, Wolvecamp; Constant, Corneille and Appel)

The exhibition at the Stedelijk Museum (Amsterdam),1949, was the first CoBrA exhibition in a public institution. At the opening, Dotremont, gave a long speech about communism in French. It was seen by some to be a provocation and some of the Dutch artists left the group.

Wonga speaks of the the Danish stance referring to poet Paul La Cour but Ernest protests he was not an artist - Wonga says poets were also in CoBrA and they argue

The Stedelijk Museum exhibited works by visual artists and hosted performances and poetry recitals by poets

Wonga returns to La Cour and Sonja Ferlov Mancoba making an artist book of a La Cour article "gør dig ikke skyldig i frygt" published in a magazine; Wonga speaks of La Cour's isolation as a communist

Wonga returns to the charged atmosphere in which CoBrA finds itself and the challenge of standing out; Ernest sympathises, giving as an example the black musician Arthur Briggs, interned with Ernest during World War II, who did not want to stand out; Wonga agrees (mentions Ejler Bille) and continues about why CoBrA did not take real political stance

Ernest explains that he and Sonja left France after the war in hopes of finding social camaraderie but that it did not prove to be the case; Wonga tries to defend some aspect of CoBrA; Ernest recalls discussion on the starting of CoBrA but that CoBrA collapsed; [tape stopped and restarted] Wonga compares group aspect of CoBrA to individualism of artists like Jackson Pollock

It should be noted that in other conversations, including an interview with Alexandra Laird in 1993, Ernest refers to the Høst and Cobra artists as his "spiritual tribe". The transcription is in the Johannesburg Art Gallery. This database contains some letters between Ernest and Laird.

[tape ends, continues 132-2]