Audio file 31-1

Ernest on his attendance at L'École Nationale Supérieure des Arts Décoratifs in Paris on meeting Christian Poulsen [the unnamed Danish student]

Mancoba arrived in Paris in late 1938. He was enrolled in the art school.

Wonga speaks of Paris as a cultural centre at the time and Ernest speaks of artist refugees fleeing Nazi Germany including Erwin Graumann and Hans Hartung

Ernest on meeting Sonja through Ejler Bille; Ernest explains the Danish artists' interest in Surrealism [mentions Richard Mortensen and Vilhelm Bjerke-Pedersen]

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga asks if Ernest had contact with the group of German refugee artists? Ernest tries to recall circumstance of meeting Hartung

It is possible that Mancoba met the German artists through Ejler Bille, as Bille's studio was close to Graumann's.

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest speaks of the pedagogy and his experience at the French art school; he continues comparing their rules to the rules of African sculpture

Mancoba first learned about African art formally through Guillaume and Munro's book "Primitive Negro Sculptures" (1929). The book is likely the source of some of his comments.

Wonga asks if the difference in European and African art was a shock to Ernest? Ernest explains he learnt about African art through the book by Paul Guillaume [unnamed but is "Primitive Negro Sculptures" (1929)]; [tape stopped and restarts] Wonga ponders on this intersection of Ernest's artistic experience, African and European

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest confesses his beginnings in Paris was difficult but he was accepted into the school; Wonga summarises that he then met Bille, Poulsen and Sonja; Ernest adds Egill Jacobsen, too, when he visited Paris

Wonga asks about what they discussed, Ernest explains that they were interested in the crisis in art, discussed the Bauhaus and Dada [mentions Tristan Tzara]; Wonga opines on Dada being against the academy; Wonga speaks of Surrealism

Ernest speaks of Sonja, Bille and he visiting galleries including ones near Rue de Seine like Galerie Pierre and saw works by Picasso [tape stopped and restarts], Georges Braque, Marc Chagall; that they had discussions after their visits

Galerie Pierre, owned by Pierre Loeb, was an important Parisian gallery that showed modern art and art of the day

Ernest explains the importance of Surrealism to the them and the ideas of Freud; asked about Sonja's reluctance over some of Freud's ideas, Ernest explains that they disagree with his theory of the dominance of the sex drive and that in his and Sonja's work they try to address the sex urge as coincident with the intellect to make a human whole; Wonga responds

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest interrupts Wonga to say that psychoanalysis can be an important tool for engaging with non-Western art by reaching the fundamental spiritualism of all humanity; Wonga ponders the impact of the analysis of the unconscious on the Surrealists (mentions Max Ernst and Rene Magritte)

Wonga asks Ernest why he admires Ernst's collages? Ernest explains the significance of found objects as the unconscious speaking; Wonga speaks of Ernst's collages; that Freud enabled the unconscious to speak and the collective unconscious can reveal humanity's crisis

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga speaks of the modern artists efforts disrupted by Nazism [mentions Duchamp, Antonin Artaud]; Wonga turns to the Nazi occupation and impact on Ernest and Sonja's stay in Paris

[tape ends, continues 31-2]