Audio file 94-2

Ernest explains he made the "African Madonna" (1929) whilst teaching at Grace Dieu; that he learned to carve from Sister Pauline when he became a teacher (and not when a student)

Wonga asks if Ernest made "Future Africa" (1933-34) whilst a teacher at Grace Dieu but was home, Ernest affirms; Wonga knew the models were Ernest's young brother (Ronald) and friend (Sipho) and asks for context

Ernest carved the work whilst at the University of Fort Hare - they correct this in audio fil 112-2

Ernest explains that he made "African Madonna" following conversation with his mother about African motherhood and the relationship between Africans and Christians, and African heritage contribution to society

Ernest speaks about concerns for African children growing up in the mining ghettos; they discuss that "Future Africa" coming out of Ernest concern for his brother and other African children; Wonga asks about practical matters of the carving

By 1930s, South Africa had been colonised for 200+ years. The discovery of diamonds in 1866 then gold in 1886 further changed the culture of formerly agrarian and herding peoples as many moved to towns to work in the mines.

Wonga wonders about Sipho, Ernest speaks of Sipho's father Nobadula and African independent churches "amadepende" (and Ernest's Uncle's church) [tape stopped and restarted multiple times]

translation of isiXhosa phrases:
"Nga ma kholwa" means they are believers or the convinced;
"Ama Independe" means the independent - in this context, the independent church

Ernest concludes that the atmostphere fed into "Future Africa" - search for real Christianity, real African, and real human

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest explains his father wanted Ernest circumcised in the African tradition (as was Nobadula); Wonga observes that modern Africans could not live in full African tradition

African initiation rituals are still practiced today and are a sensitive and closed topics to outsiders.

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest criticises Western churches for betraying Christ (Wonga mentions Heidegger and Nietzsche); Ernest speaks of his father having the same view

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest expresses his wish that what he said about Nobadula and the mines not be published

We have decided to include the conversation because of the time that has passed between the events and the peoples mentioned and because of the importance of the oral history for the understanding of South African mining history

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest speaks of Ronnie and Sipho playing cricket

[tape ends]