Audio file 116-1

Wonga begins by referencing Ernest and Ejler Bille's exchange of their cultures' arts but proceeds to speak of African art

Ernest replies that art is when the material and the spirit come together, and that the message must be that everyone must be one. He warns about politics dividing humanity

Wonga counters with a wider definition of art and Ernest disagrees; they debate [tape stopped and restarts in the midst]

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest brings up Paul Guillaume's book; Wonga brings up Bertolt Brecht and Victor Vasarely

Although unidentified, the book is "Primitive Negro Sculptures" (1929), co-authored with Thomas Munro

Wonga asks Ernest to remember what Vasarely said to him, Ernest paraphrases that black people are only interested in sex; Wonga adds that Vasarely's view is that African artists are interested in sex whilst Europeans are interested in abstract geometry

In Hans Ulrich Obrist's 2001 interview, Ernest states "I met a well-known modern painter of the so-called 'Hard Edge' group. When he saw me, together with Sonja Ferlov, he said, addressing both of us, 'Ah, it is you who like the art of the negroes. They are too full of sensuality, always making sculptures with a big sex, while we modern artists of Europe have left behind these primitive obsessions".(2013, p.139)

Wonga summarises his argument that art is art, though it can come from different context, but that it cannot be divided - not scientific versus pre-logic, per Brecht and Vasarely's arguments. They come to an agreement

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga asks Ernest what he studied, Ernest answers psychology

The University of Fort Hare offered a curriculum in general humanities.

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga refers to an article in the Sunday Times, 17th October 1999, about the relationship between surrealism and Disney animations; it reminds him that in Linien, they called Disney their own. Wonga believes art and show business are opposites and Ernest agrees

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga continues, about Pop Art (mentions Andy Warhol) and the concept of "non-art"

[tape ends]