Audio file 65-1

Wonga sets out his opinion on why Ernest was sent from St Denis to Drancy, that Ernest, in setting up a debating society, was promoting thinking which troubled the Nazis and motivated their sending Ernest to Drancy

Ernest says he had no forewarning, that a messenger was sent to him to pack his bags as he was being transferred to Drancy; Ernest accepts Wonga's reason for his transfer

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest recalls how he organised the debating society at St Denis, of a hall available to the prisoners where the debates could be held - and the musician Arthur Briggs could perform

St Denis, as a camp for non-combatants, enjoyed more liberties than other camps, including the prisoners being allowed to self-organise events. [In Briggs' biography, he recounts a Christmas concert]

Ernest explains that having been told he was going to Drancy, a truck came the next day - Wonga asks for the type of truck; Ernest says he only came to realise that most of the prisoners were Jewish and that he was the only Black man [in his section]

Wonga asks about the Drancy prisoners not speaking English and how it affected Ernest, but Ernest says the unease was more due to adjusting to the prison's system; Ernest recalls that he could only leave his room when accompanied by armed German soldiers when on work duty

Ernest explains how work is assigned by a Jewish prisoner, how they were summoned and organised

Ernest gives details of the incidence when he was abused by a German soldier during work duty

also discussed in audio files 18-1, 64-1 and 91-1

Ernest asks one of the Jewish prisoners to help him draft a complaint which he left with the Commandant; Ernest recalls not expecting a reply but was surprised when the Commandant called him to his office for an inquiry

The letter is digitised, addressed to Mr Fletcher, dated 30 May 1941

Ernest expresses his belief that the Commandant then arranged for him to be transferred back to St Denis

The reason for Ernest's transfer to and from Drancy is unknown as are the dates. There is a letter from St Denis to Drancy dated 22 April 1942 asking about Ernest's nationality

Ernest speaks of another incidence at Drancy when he witnessed one Jewish prisoner assaulting another when there was an argument whether a Rabbi should be called to work or not

also discussed in 64-1

Wonga extracts from the violent incident the atmosphere of distrust that must have been in the camp, with groups falling together for self-protection; Ernest agrees, as the camp was a transport camp and Wonga says that also because prisoners were being used to guard other prisoners

Regarding Ernest's knowledge that Drancy was a transit camp, in other files he said that he did not know this at the time

Ernest also recalls seeing a group of Black soldiers brought in and quickly transferred out; Wonga comments that Black soldiers were not supposed to be there

Wonga comes to the question of the dates when Ernest was at Drancy: that based on Ernest saying there were no French police, Wonga concludes it was after July 1943 as the French police ceded to the Germans after that, but based on Ernest's observation of Black soldiers, it would have been early in the war; Ernest wants to clarify that he was retained in a specific section and could not know what was happening camp-wide; Wonga admits the dates remain a mystery

Wonga's dates are not consistent with the dates of documents in the archive

[tape ends, continues 65-2]