Audio file 64-1

[this portion of the tape is corrupted]

[parts of this section of the recording are corrupted] Wonga and Ernest speak of the identification of Jews in Paris during World War II; Ernest speaks of Jewish prisoners self-grouping in St Denis internment camp which was also the case for other ethnic groups

Wonga asks Ernest to speak of the German commandant and Ernest says there were many; Wonga clarifies that he wants to speak about the commandant who listened to Ernest's complaint

This was Mr Fletcher, see audio file 18-1 and digitised letter in dbase

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga wonders that the Nazis did not treat Ernest and other Black prisoners worse in the internment camps; Ernest believes it was due to Germany planning to retake previous African colonies; Wonga adds the Germans wanted the English and French colonies too

Ernest thinks he was sent from St Denis to Drancy because the Germans noticed his leadership abilities and saw him as a potential threat - Wonga adds that they then changed their minds and returned him to St Denis

During a point in his imprisonment, Ernest was sent from St Denis camp to Drancy camp and later transferred back. The conditions in Drancy were harsher than at St Denis

Wonga asks about the St Denis commandant and Ernest recalls being asked to be a liason to other Africans for Germany; Wonga asks if the prison had Ernest learn German and Ernest corrects that it was on his initiative

Ernest continues that because he could follow German, he was able to understand the soldiers who mistreated Black soldiers; Wonga realises that the commandant who took Ernest's side and punished the German soldier was at Drancy, not St Denis; Wonga asks if it was the SS officer who was about to be tried for crimes against humanity [they cannot recall the name]

Note that Ernest's last camp before liberation was St Denis, not Drancy - see digitised documents in the dbase

Ernest recaps the event when he was insulted by a German soldier, complained and the commandant chastised the soldier; Wonga expresses incredulity given the objective of Drancy camp was racial extermination

they also speak about this incident in tape 18-1

Ernest recounts an incidence at Drancy when a Jewish prisoner, protecting a rabbi, was attacked violently by another Jewish prisoner; Wonga asks if the victim was British or French?

Ernest says his friend Milosz was also sent to Drancy [see tape 47-1] but Wonga clarifies that Ernest had previously said that he was sent to Drancy alone; Wonga tries to clarify the 2 camps for Ernest [speaking in a mix of English and French]; Wonga asks Ernest how he felt being removed from St Denis to Drancy, that they don't know why it happened and Ernest gives his opinion for the reason of the transfer; Wonga adds his thoughts [they are interrupted by the arrival of a visitor]

The exact dates of when Ernest was transferred to Drancy and back to St Denis are not clear. A handwritten date on the back of Ernest's prisoner card states he was interred at St Denis on 28 July 1940; the date of a letter to commandant at Drancy places Ernest in Drancy on 30 May 1941; the allowance of marriage places Ernest in St Denis on 29 April 1942; he was released from St Denis on 26 Aug 1944

In audio file 151-1, Ernest recalls Milosz being sent to Royallieu-Compiègne camp (rather than Drancy)

[tape stopped and restarts] they pick up where they left off, with Wonga hypothesising that Ernest was sent to Drancy as a threat not to turn down the German's request to be their African liason; Ernest allows the inclusion of Wonga's idea as a question

Wonga realises that they need to address commandants at both camps; Wonga returns to speculation if Alois Brunner was the Drancy commandant during Ernest's time and reason for why the commandant supported Ernest over his subordinate

various sources (though no primary documentation) place SS Captain Alois Brunner as camp commandant at Drancy in 1943 to 1944

Ernest says that he and Sonja were married before he was sent to Drancy; Wonga is astonished and leads him to further speculation; Ernest brings up the German soldier who took a photo of he and Sonja on their wedding day but Wonga wants to continue on Ernest's relationship with German authorities

see note above; it is likely Ernest and Sonja married after he was sent to Drancy and returned

the photos are in the family archive and in Ernest's biography "Lifeline out of Africa: the art of Ernest Mancoba" by Elza Miles, 1994, Human & Rousseau

[tape ends]