Audio file 146-1

Wonga asks Ernest about his political leanings to which Ernest explains they are influenced by his mother who was both a devout Christian and a deep believer in African tradition of uniting the spiritual and the material in communicating social order; that he finds no political organisations correspond to either values

Ernest elaborates, explaining he tries to follow different political parties' arguments but, for example, the workers' party focused only on material wealth distribution; Wonga adds that the party lacks an argument for the morality of sharing

Wonga asks if Ernest intended to return to South Africa or that he stayed away because the National Party came into power? Wonga suggests that Ernest left because of the level of the level of segregation he experienced, that with apartheid becoming law under the Party there would be no improvement

The National Party was the political party that eventually set apartheid into law

Wonga asks if Ernest is a socialist painter, and Ernest explains that he is the voice of the human situation like a poet being a voice for the people

Wonga asks Ernest to speak of Sonja Ferlov's conception of the artist as a shaman; Ernest explains that though some saw the notion as old-fashioned, both Sonja and he believe in the heritage of the shaman which played a part in societies through the ages; Ernest explains that the role of the shaman is to help society towards spiritual and material progress but the shaman must listen to all the members

Wonga asks if Ernest's art is influenced by contemporary politics; Ernest repeats that politics of the time focus on material gains and ignore the spiritual side; Wonga raises the point that politics affected Ernest's decision to leave his country and he came to engage with other arts, that Sonja made "Skulptur" (1940-46) because Ernest was interned during the war; Wonga concludes that the challenging political circumstances lead to their art

Ernest is reminded that when he was a student in South Africa, an English woman told them of Oxford students stating that World War I cost so many young lives and that they will never support dying for another, that it affected him and the other students; Ernest is further reminded that he was nicknamed "stereo" because he was against repetition and that rather he and Govan Mbeki worked against it

Wonga asks how Ernest contributed to the liberation of South Africa; Wonga suggests that the artist's duty is one of expression, that the spiritual act is not a gun [referring to John Milton]; Ernest brings up that Gerard Sekoto didn't want to return

The questions may be part of Mancoba's contribution to a short documentary on Gerard Sekoto - see letters in the archive from Alex Laird

The question is where Ernest settled outside of South Africa?

For the question of Ernest's contact with his family in South Africa, Ernest speaks of apartheid being against a mixed-race marriage restricting his return; they decide they didn't want to answer

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