Audio file 8-1

Wonga proposes structure of memoire as Ernest's life in dialogue with his views of art and life, Ernest agrees

Ernest begins that he was born in the environs of a mine; Wonga asks that they speak of Ernest's father [Irvine Mancoba] first

Ernest's father was born into a family of African leaders in the Transkei; they did not agree with Shaka Zulu so left the land of the Zulus and were adapted by the Xhosa people further south

Transkei was a region of South Africa bordered by the Kei river set to serve as a non-independent "homeland" until 1994 when it became two provinces, Easter Cape and Kwazulu Natal

whilst isiZulu is their ancestral language, his father's mother tongue was isiXhosa but that Ernest could speak isiZulu and taught it at a school

Ernest taught isiZulu at Khaiso Secondary School.

Today, the preface "isi" is used to designate language such as isiXhosa and isiZulu

Ernest confirms his mother had similar history of migration and language; that his mother and father met in the Transkei; Wonga asks for clarification of their emigration vis-à-vis the time of Shaka Zulu

Wonga asks for the timing of the grandmother who sacrificed herself; Ernest explains that it was during the time of Shaka; they discuss the militarisation of the Zulus against the Boers

some historians argue that Shaka Zulu was motivated to create his army - even using violence - as a means to fight against the Dutch colonisers, the so-called Boers

Wonga asks about Ernest's father's interest in the whites and their promise of progress

[tape stopped and restarts; they switch to English] Ernest first explains about his grandfather, a member of the ruling council of African chiefs and was unsure of the English colonisers; that there were missionaries who built churches and schools - Ernest's grandfather did not convert to Christianity

"nkundla" means court or parliament in isiXhosa

In an interview with The Church Times (an English newspaper), dated 28 Oct 1938, Mancoba suggested that his grandfather became Christian and as a result, gave up polygamy and that his father's mother was no longer a wife.

Ernest's father, on the other hand, was interested in the English; he attended school against his father's objection in secret - when the grandfather discovered this, he beat Irvine and damaged his thumb

Irvine also joined the English in their wars against the Boers when he was in his early-mid 20s; that Irvine journeyed from the Transkei, boarding a boat that took him from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town, where the English army was based); Irvine drove the mules who pulled the cannons

Irvine was sent North to the Transvaal, and one of the most dramatic battles was the taking of the diamond mines in Kimberley when the machine gun was first used in warfare

Irvine then went to the Transvaal and was in the battle that took Pretoria and the gold mines

Irvine also worked in the concentration camps which was invented during the Anglo-Boer War

Ernest explains that the Anglo-Boer war ends with the English taking the mines and the Boers, the land for agriculture, including the Africans for labourers

[recording ends]

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