Audio file 109-1

Wonga on Ernest's contact with African sculptures in South Africa through visiting villages with Gerard Sekoto; Wonga opines on the two objects gifted to Ernest by the African sculptor

Wonga comments on staffs over masks in Southern Africa; Wonga compares the chieftain staff gifted to Ernest and Western kings' staffs

As the staff is important, Wonga wants more details from Ernest; Wonga considers the sculptor wanting to transmit African heritage to Ernest as he readies to leave Africa behind; Ernest disputes he is leaving Africa behind, they argue

Wonga focuses his question on what heritage Ernest believes the sculptor is passing to him with the gift, but they argue; eventually they agree that the sculptor wanted Ernest to take courage on his journey

Wonga observes a parallel between Ernest's experience and Africa that must also adapt to the modern world and make own decisions (refers to Nelson Mandela), leading to his interpretation of art as expressed in the African sculptor's gesture

[tape stopped and restarted] Wonga asks about the African saying and phrasing

"Indaba Zabantu" means the affairs/news of the African people

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest speaks of African women's dispersion of African men for losing to whites

translations of isiXhosa phrases:
"kwa ku tsheni abelungu batathe bonke ababantu bethu" means why did you allow white people to take our humanity;
"Zinkomo(ma gwala)" means cowards

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest explains about a Xhosa cloth; [tape stopped and restarted] Wonga raises issue of craft versus art, touristic craft versus the craft base of African art; they agree that White intervention destroys indigenous culture, discussing the Ndebele culture as an example

Wonga digresses into impact of cultural contacts; they speak of jazz and ask if freedom is necessary to make art

Ernest sings a song from black enslaved people in America and they discuss the history that caused the song to be made

[tape ends]