Audio file 56-1

Ernest explains he was born in Turffontein, a district of Johannesburg in 1904; Wonga reads his words about Ernest's birth [in French] and requests response in Ernest's own words [in French and English]

In the biography "Lifeline out of Africa: the art of Ernest Mancoba" (1994) his birthplace is mistakenly given as Boksburg; the biographer, Elza Miles, corrected this in a subsequent book "Land and Lives: the story of early black artists" (1997) it has been corrected

Ernest says that he was not the eldest for an earlier child died before Ernest was born; he cannot remember where the child was born and died

Wonga is confused about the different locations and Ernest tries to explain [Turffontein, Boksburg, Johannesburg]; he speaks about Irvine's work in Turffontein

the towns of Boksburg, Germiston, Benoni where the Mancoba family lived sprung up due to the nearby gold mines; they began as shantytown or informal settlements for miners and some became towns; they are now neighbourhoods of greater Johannesburg.

Turffontein was the site of the English army garrison during the Anglo-Boer war. Ernest's father was a soldier for the English army during the war

Ernest says that after Turffontein, the family moved to Boksburg, in proximity to Comet mine, in the district of Johannesburg; that he thinks the older child who died was born in Boksburg leading him to wonder if he himself had been born in Boksburg too; Wonga asks if Ernest had any birth certificates or why Ernest thinks Turffontein was where he was born, Ernest cannot answer

New Comet mine is one of the largest gold mines in the Witwatersrand reef

There is no known birth certificate. Ernest's biographer's letter to South African Home Affairs (in Johannesburg Art Gallery archive) confirms no documents

Ernest speaks more about the deceased older sibling who became ill at a few months old, who did not receive medical attention because there are no hospitals for Black people nor did his family have money; Ernest recalls his mother giving birth to his younger sisters on her own at home; Wonga observes that in traditional African society, there would have been a social structure to help Florence with her births, but that at Boksburg there was no such structure because Boksburg was about gold mining - where even White miners lived in minimal conditions [Wonga speaks in English and French]

The conditions of the mining shantytowns would have been very basic

They discuss the impact of such chaotic industrial beginnings on societies [Wonga speaks in French]; Ernest discuss impact on contemporary times

[tape stopped and restarts] they revisit the topics: African women giving birth with support of their community, the rate of death during time birth in the mining towns, Ernest mentions the basic conditions of informal settlement for Black Africans like Khayelitsha; they discuss birth places of Ernest's deceased elder sibling and Ernest [Wonga speaks in French]

They discuss Ernest's deceased older brother in the mining town conditions - Ernest does not know his name; Ernest has one younger brother [Wonga speaks in French]

Ernest's younger brother's name is Ronald

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest recounts what his mother told him about trying to save her child

a "shebeen" is a speakeasy or illegal drinking place; a "skokiaan" is illegally-made alcohol

[recording stopped]

[tape ends]