Audio file 95-2

Wonga speaks of CoBrA being exclusionary, mentioning some - unidentified - who did not want Ernest nor Henry Heerup to be included; Wonga contrasts CoBrA with the earlier Linien group who was at least open in debating with Villhelm Bjerke-Petersen

Linien was an artist association that operated from 1934 to 1938. It saw a division amongst its co-founders when Vilhelm Bjerke-Petersen left the group due to artistic difference with the others

Wonga suggests that Sonja Ferlov Mancoba wanted inclusion of those advocating geometric rationality, expressing his opinion that openness was necessary; Wonga comments on artists moving on (Ejler Bille, Eric Thommesan, Ortvad); Wonga asks Ernest about having spoken to Asger Jorn about CoBrA but continues to speak about inclusion

[tape stopped and restarted] Wonga extends his thoughts on openness to people of the colonies

Ernest summarises his opinion that the CoBrA movement "finished" because the development of a universal language of art required the recognition that "man is man because of other men"; Wonga continues his rebuke of CoBrA; Ernest restates that the Occidental world needs to include the rest

Ernest's reference of humans because of others comes from the South African saying "Umuntu" or "Ubuntu" (the latter spelling is more common today).

Wonga returns to how they were pushed aside by the Danes; Ernest cannot identify any artist; Wonga presses for more details but Ernest is confused about different associations

Wonga reminds Ernest that the debate with Richard Mortensen was not about CoBrA but about Hard Edge; Wonga ruminates on timing of split with the Hard Edge group and the beginning of CoBrA; Wonga returns to dissolution of CoBrA

Ernest and Wonga use "Cobra" and "Hard Edge" to group the artistic divide of spontaneous and intuitive versus rational and geometric respectively.

Ernest speaks of a group photo for the CoBrA retrospective in Paris in 1983 in which Eric Ortvad said that Ernest should not be included; Wonga said Ortvad was trying to separate Ernest from Sonja for reasons unknown; Wonga says the other Danes/CoBrA were either not aware or did not defend against it, that it was not the norm then to defend an artist from the "third world" with the exception of Wilfredo Lam

The CoBrA retrospective in Paris in 1983 was held at Musée d'Art Moderne de la Ville (and travelled through France).

Wonga posits that Ernest & Sonja Ferlov Mancoba understood CoBrA was "condemned" and retired, at the same time no one told them it had ended; later Jorn sent a letter to them in Oigney-en-Valois; Ernest confirms

[recording ended - rest is corrupted]

[tape ends]