Audio file 63-2

continues from 63-1] Ernest and Wonga speak of Ernest's achieving his Junior Teaching Certificate and another Grace Dieu student [unnamed] who was the first Black man to get the Junior Teaching Certificate

According to Ernest's biographer, Ernest studied for his teaching certificate between 1920 to 1923 and taught at Grace Dieu from 1924 to 1929

[tape stopped and restarts] Wonga names others at Grace Dieu - the 3 Sisters, Pauline, Inez and unnamed [Margaret] and Father Palmer; Ernest recalls Reverend Woodfield who had the highest qualifications at Grace Dieu, taught theory of education, and was allowed to administer the Teaching certificate examination

for photos of Sisters Pauline and Margaret, refer digitised letter from Guy Butler dated 12 August 1998

Wonga asks for physical and biographical descriptions of the teachers

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest recalls a priest, Gleipo, who got married when Ernest was teaching at Grace Dieu; that the woman he married was the daughter of an important Black man who worked in the Department of Native Affairs, named Amabelle - which is also Ernest's family clan name - and who was asked to beseech Ernest to reconsider turning down the Empire Exhibition commission

The Empire exhibition was held in Johannesburg in 1936

"Amabhele" refers to an African people who lived in Lenge, Kwazulu-Natal

Wonga return to the 3 nuns; Ernest says there were nuns who worked with the female students and he worked with the 3

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest describes the appearance of Father Woodfield and the dress of Woodfield and Father Palmer - who is distinct from James Palmer; Ernest mentions his uncle, Alvin Mangwangana [tape stopped and restarts] Ernest speaks about Father Gleipou; Wonga asks about Freddie Oliphant whom Ernest describes as enjoying life ("bon vivant") and Loquay

[tape stopped and restarts] Ernest recalls when he was a small boy and herding the sheep, a man disciplined Ernest on behalf of his absent father; Ernest explains the right is called Singabantu and explains contextual phrases

"Singabantu" means "we are also human";
"Ungumuntu" means "person" or "human";
"Ayingomntu" means "not human"
in the language of the Xhosa people

[tape stopped and restarts - Elske Miles joins them] Ernest recalls Jewish prisoners given work duty with one in the group protesting that a rabbi was included, and physical violence ensues between the protester and another Jewish prisoner; Ernest also recalls the violence with which the German soldiers handled Black French soldiers

They are joined by a visitor, Elske Miles

Ernest speaks of a German soldier who makes a racist comment towards him; Wonga interrupts for Ernest to explain how he understood the German term from his friend [Geoffrey Davids] but Ernest first digresses on insults from children in England; Wonga adds some detail to the German soldier abuse story

Ernest and Elske speak of Africa and humanity [Ernest mentions Jean-Marie Le Pen]; Wonga speaks of the memoire

[tape ends]