Audio file 48-1

Wonga asks Ernest to speak about seeing the British Museum collection of African art; Ernest recalls being impressed by the preservation of different cultures

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest was proud to see the African art collection in the Museum; he said seeing the collection valued gave him courage; Wonga probes for more detail including why Ernest did not visit the South African National Gallery

Wonga asks for more details about seeing African art for the first time, but continues about the Ndebele culture and the chieftain stick and the carved crocodile gifted to Ernest by the African sculptor not being received as art

other audio files on the chieftain stick: 102-1 and 103-2

In response to Ernest's question why they were not art, Wonga replies that art is universally accepted as objects in museums; Ernest argues that the African definition of art as being for all men and not in museums; Wonga speaks of the differences in definition of art by the West and Africa (mentions Van Gogh)

They move to speak of Western religion; Wonga speaks of separation of religion and art from society in the West, and role of Western museums as preserver of artefacts

Wonga summarises Ernest's exposure to art prior to the visit to the British Museum, and ruminates on the museum creating a distance with art (mentions Van Gogh and Antonin Artaud, Musée d'Orsay and Musée de l'Homme)

Wonga turns to Ernest not being allowed to see art in South Africa

[tape stopped and restarted] Wonga asks about Ernest's impression of being in England, Ernest felt prejudice giving the example of a newspaper seller who refused to help him find an address or sell him the Times newspaper

Wonga asks Ernest about going to the pub to meet workers in a friendlier atmosphere, but Ernest says that he put on a cap but his attempts were rebuffed

[tape stopped and restarted] Ernest speaks of improving conditions for workers (mentions Karl Marx) but Wonga wants Ernest's experiences [tape stopped and restarted multiple times]

[tape ends]